An Unrepresentative DemoCamp
September 27, 2006 – 5:40 pmDemoCamp 9, held two days ago, was the first that has disappointed me. Disappointment #1 was the demos themselves: ConceptShare’s was great—I really want a chance to play with their stuff—and DictaBrain’s voicemail-to-text was intriguing until we learned that the transcription is going to be done by typists in India, rather than software, but the eMail Company’s form builder looked very 1999, and I’m not sure even now what the point of the InfoQ and Pursudo demos were: the guy who demo’d the first seemed to be trying to persuade us that yes, there really was some technical innovation in the site (I didn’t see it), while the second was something thrown together in three days just so its authors could demo it.
If that was as far as the letdown went, I’d be OK: I used to play a little jazz, and I know that open mike nights are always a mixed bag. But as David Crow has very courageously said in his latest post, that isn’t all that went wrong. ConceptShare is intended to help people collaborate on graphic design over the web; it lets you post images (such as advertising copy or screenshots of a new GUI), then annotate them and draw on them asynchronously, with all the logging and blogging you’d expect. During their demo, its creators used an image of a busty young woman in a low-cut dress taken from (I believe) a perfume ad. One of the guys standing behind my table made a couple of locker room comments about her breasts while the image was on screen, and another couple of guys near him laughed. They probably didn’t notice the looks on the faces of the women at my table, but I did. As the one who had invited those three women to attend, I felt embarrassed, and ashamed, and more than a little bit angry.
And then the Pursudo guys started their presentation with, “The purpose of our software is get someone in this room laid,” or something very similar. I looked around at all the white male faces (at least 90% white, in a tech gathering, in Toronto—when’s the last time you saw that?): some were grinning, and the rest were carefully neutral, because let’s face it: nobody wants to be the prissy politically correct spoilsport who says, “You’re making people feel uncomfortable.”
Two of the students who came with me have since said that they won’t return. I don’t think it’s because the demos were a letdown; I think it was the boy’s club atmosphere. As I said a couple of weeks ago, I think that fixing this ought to be the goal of future Web 2.0 gatherings (and others). We’ll all be better for it.
23 Responses to “An Unrepresentative DemoCamp”
Quick remarks:
- Nothing wrong with saying “the purpose of our software is to get someone laid”. It’s why Match, LavaLife, and countless other site exists. Let’s just get over being uptight about this. I think the /teens thing was pretty tasteless on Pete’s part, so I don’d totally disagree with you, but I’m not convinced this particular comment was a big deal.
- The juvenile frat-boy comments certainly sound uncool. I didn’t show up that early, so wasn’t there by then, but I think there’s a fine balance between trying to make everyone comfy (and creating an antisceptic and boring environment), and letting the frat-boys in question get away with being insulting and crass. What’s the balance? I’m not sure… I’m just pointing out that I think there’s a lot of grey here…
By Sutha Kamal on Sep 27, 2006
I’ve we-written my responses many times. Most of them I would regret later.
Final draft:
I strongly disagree. I find this post highly patronizing to all minorities in the CS field.
-hampton.
By Hampton Catlin on Sep 27, 2006
Greg,
Regarding InfoQ, I was not hugely impressed with the demo itself, but I was glad to learn about the site: it is a valuable resource that I was unaware of, and may supplant TheServerSide.COM as my main source for enterprise tech info.
I thought DictaBrain was cool, even without machine transcription. Yes, the Email Company’s product did look a bit boring.
Regarding the “Pusudo was a project to help Pete get laid” comment, I believe it was a heckled comment from David Crow, but I could be mistaken. Personally, it didn’t meet my threashold for what I consider offensive at a evening gathering in a bar. I laughed. The only one who could rightly claim offence would be Pete, but knowing the man well, I’m sure he didn’t whatsoever.
As for the the ConceptShare demo, it was among the best demos we’ve had at any DemoCamp. Its hard to complain about the evening’s demos with this one included.
Did you address the guys who made the “locker room comments” directly? What was their response? I can honestly say that I can not remember ever hearing anything like that at the 7 or 8 {Bar|Demo}Camp events I have participated in. Have you?
Without having heard the comments, I say to your offended students that it is a big, wide world out there and they should ready themselves. Attending a nerdy evening event under the watchful care of their professor is a pretty safe step out into the world, relative to other social situations that will encounter. To tuck tail and not return on account of this is a loss to community and a missed opportunity in their personal growth. Were I to mentor them on this situation, I would have advised them to approach the offending jokers themselves! That’s what grown-ups do.
Regardless, the ConceptShare team may want to consider using a different image for the next demo, even if this one is only about as offensive as walking by a magazine stand sporting Cosmo & Flare.
John
By John Philip Green on Sep 27, 2006
We apologize if we offended anyone it was certainly not the intention, we were demostrating several differenty types of purposes for our application and one of them was, what we thought was a typical example of an ordinary looking magazine ad. But perhaps it’s best to change if it takes the audiences attention away from the application itself. I didn’t hear the comments myself either but couldn’t help but notice the laughter. I’d hope the students will try out another nite before making a final decision.
Bernie
ConceptShare
By Bernie Aho on Sep 27, 2006
Well said John and Hampton.
I hope Greg encourages those offended to come back - otherwise the Boys Club is here to stay. Running away isn’t going to help.
By Watts on Sep 27, 2006
Since my comments “The purpose of our software is get someone in this room laid” or something similar made you uncomfortable I wonder why you approached me after the talk, told me that you enjoyed it, asked if we were hiring and introduced me to two of your students.
I will certainly keep your opinion in mind next time we chat.
By Ryan on Sep 27, 2006
Tom has posted a photo on Flickr of the breastfull ConceptShare demo photo for our continued pontification:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thomaspurves/253522917/
Also, regarding my previous comment above, my apologies to David, for it seems that Ryan has now claimed the “blah blab blah getting laid” remark.
By John Philip Green on Sep 27, 2006
I totally agree with John and Watts responses…
I think a simple comment back to the person in question would have been a more fitting solution to the problem. I’ve never met a mean or hateful person at democamp. I’m sure that a simple comment to this person would have resulted in an apology.
While we are on the topic of apologies I think that someone owes ConceptShare an apology for asking them if it was snowing in Sudbury
By Jamie McQuay on Sep 28, 2006
Thanks for the comments, everyone. A couple of clarifications:
1) Yes, I should have spoken to the guys who made the comments then and there. It’s not the first time I’ve wished after the fact that I’d spoken out.
2) I’ve already apologized to Bernie Aho for not making it clear that he and the ConceptShare team did *not* offend anyone — it was the comments from bystanders that did that. I thought their demo was great, and if they weren’t in Sudbury (which, in the minds of most U of T students, is full of cannibals and grizzly bears ;-)), they’d already be flooded with resumes from my students.
I’ll try to talk to other posters about the points they made by email before replying here. Thank you all once again for your comments.
By Greg Wilson on Sep 28, 2006
I had a great time at DemoCamp9. I can’t say I was offended by anything! It was all in good fun. The “offensive” demos were entertaining and funny. Maybe I’m just used to the “old boys club”. I studied engineering! It doesn’t bother me at all.
I also consider myself difficult to offend. I think life is easier that way, and way more fun. If I do get offended, I’m certainly not shy from saying so (as my good friend Leila discovered last Friday night), and I get over it, fast. Your students should have spoken up, not just shyed away from coming again. You shouldn’t have to speak up for them.
Some of the demos were weak, some were great. I think the point of Pursudo - correct me if I’m wrong - was to demonstrate the power of Ruby on Rails. Just because it took three days doesn’t mean it wasn’t worthy. It was impressive - and speaks to the technology and the gifted developers.
As for the busty ad - has anyone seen like 80% of the ads out there? Go for a walk, if there is a woman in there, she’s busty, and showing you some other attributes as well.
I love DemoCamp, and the people there. Yes, it is mostly men. I would say that’s just representative of the community. Why that is, is a whole different argument.
By Malgosia Green on Sep 28, 2006
I’ve posted my response on my blog here. Let me know folks if you agree. It went long winded but at leas I did greatly amuse at least myself coming up with bits like:
“Now you might think asking a group of computer-savvy young men to design a social and romantic dating site might seem like asking a porpoise to design a running shoe, but you have to give them heart for trying…”
By Tom Purves on Sep 28, 2006
The “get Pete laid” heckling was definitely me. Eli is still (one of ) my Jewish friends. The heckling for “we built this happily in J2EE not Ruby on Rails. You suck!” heckling was also me. I continue to taunt Greg about Django, TurboGears, CherryPy and Python.
I’m just happy that there are people building software products in Toronto and the GTA. I’m even happier that they want to hang out, share and generally have a community.
By David Crow on Sep 28, 2006
I posted this on David’s blog: It doesn’t make sense for you (David) to apologize. The above picture might have been offensive to some, while the comments made about it offended someone else, while the laughter about it offended someone else. Personally, I felt offended when a few DemoCamps ago I saw a really crappy demo by someone showcasing a really big IT company’s really crappy product - it made no sense whatsoever.
With DemoCamp’s very open and fluid community and with people not knowing each other that much, there is not enough peer pressure perhaps, so it would be hard to outright prevent such incidents in the future. And I agree that the setting is a strong influence on how people behave. At UofT’s geekland (Bahen Centre) or even at MaRS, such incidents are quite unlikely to happen (I have never witnessed one in the past few years…geeks tend to respect geeks).
About the makeup of the community…who cares ! I can be termed a ‘visible minority’ since I am originally from India, but the only things I care about at DemoCamp are the demos and an opportunity to meet some fellow geeks. It won’t make an iota of difference to me whether the room is full of white, brown, blue, purple, etc people or what their dress style is or other aspects of their personal life - I don’t give a damn about all that. Also, on the flip side, the “makeup” of the computer science and engineering student community at UofT is predominantly of asian, south asian and east european origin, and I’ll estimate about 10% students are “white”. Maybe 20-30% students are female. I haven’t heard anyone talking about including more “white” students.
So, basically, it boils down to: people will do what they want to do, and it is hard and not useful to try to shape communities…it is sufficient for the community to be open and it can then evolve by itself…no need to feel bad about the decisions other people make for themselves’.
By varun mathur on Sep 28, 2006
Ryan,
I can tell you exactly why Greg didn’t mention it to you; because it would reduce his chances of networking. He’s all about networking, meeting as many people at these and other events. Through his networking he helps students find jobs (an admirable thing to do). However I don’t agree the with the process in which he does it, both making contacts, and how he selects the students he likes (again often through networking).
I have to say that at first I was impressed with Greg, he was a smooth talker and seems very nice. However, after I realized what he really is like, I changed my mind.
By Anonymous coward on Sep 28, 2006
Dear Anonymous,
My mildly vitriolic post above, like many of the others here, don’t exemplify the genuinely high regard in which we all hold Greg. Let me address that now.
Greg brings a lot of value to each and every DemoCamp. His feedback is characteristically sharp and often useful. He’s introduced many dozens of people to the community and is one of the best connectors therein.
Greg was wholy responsible for hooking me up with Nicolaas Handojo, a student of his, who did a most fantastic job last term adding features to a project of mine called Languify. Nicolaas and I presented it at the end of his term together. Everybody won. I am excitedly beginning work with Student #2 this week, Jeff Okawa. I look forward to a long and fruitful relationship with Greg and his students.
What I see in Greg is a recognition that Waterloo is where its at. Hahaha–no, I’m serious–he’s trying to recreate the Waterloo Co-op program at UoT all by himself. I got a lot out of Co-op during my undergraduate career, and encourage any efforts to spread this approach elsewhere.
Greg is a pillar of TorCamp. Please do not disparage his efforts.
John
By John Philip Green on Sep 28, 2006
*headdesk*
Anonymous! Come on!
I barely know Greg, but I can’t wait for him to log in to Pursudo and see how people are talking about opportunities to explore the Don Valley by bike, carve pumpkins and distribute them on traffic medians, and check out underground coal fires.
Please just.. sigh.
Everything is going to be okay, there is nothing to see here. Move along.
By Pete on Sep 28, 2006
I think you two seem to have misread my post. I was simply explaining to Ryan why (I believe) he behaved the way he did. I never said that he does not do good. You’ll see that I did point out that him helping students get jobs was an admirable thing to do.
You’re probably now thinking, but he said he changed his mind about Greg. I can admire some things he does but not agree with the principles by which he does them, and that’s all I was saying.
By Anonymous coward on Sep 30, 2006
I have wanted to leave a comment here for a while. After reading the feedback from all the males, I thought it needed a bit of a female perspective.
I don’t think it is fair for many people to assume this behaviour is appropriate and women should just deal with it. It is not a gender issue, these type of comments from men (or women) undermine the intelligence of everyone around them.
I have never been singled out in the tech industry for my gender, but I have experienced the boys-club attitude. I have not been offended by it, but it is completely out of line when used at an inappropriate time or place; like a presentation, such as democamp.
By Lillian Angel on Sep 30, 2006
Anonymous, you seem to have some issues with Greg’s networking methodologies. While it is possible (I would say unlikely) that Greg didn’t bring up the comments to Ryan at the time because it would have hurt his attempts at networking, it is also possible (and likely) that the full ramefications didn’t hit Greg until later in the evening.
I would also like to mention that I think it would be possible to staff a successful start-up with “must be personally recommended by Greg Wilson” as the only qualification for new hires.
By tsmith on Oct 2, 2006
I’ve never been to a bar camp gig, but have been interested in going. I’m surprised this conversation is actually even happening. It seems that the boys club mentality left unchecked is prevalent. So is the whiteness of it all. You visible minorities are kidding yourself that it doesn’t matter. It does. I’ve been in tech for about 10 years, and I find the wasps to be at the top. Not really representative of the employee makeup.
By sura on Oct 9, 2006
I have been to a few democamps and a barcamp. Now mind you i am part of the ‘wasps’ that sura refers to. I am not really sure how to respond as I know many non ‘wasps’ that are building and thriving thier own things.
Please don’t trammple on me for having the guts to quite my job and go for my own glory. Nor do i trample on anyone elese who is attempting to do so. Regardless of the socioeconomic standing.
In my humble opinion, lets give everyone the venue to grab thier dreams. not shit on them for being one colour or another. Everyone has obstacles to over come ….mine happens to be a 3 hour drive to these events.
cheers
scott
I hope sura can take the opportunity to really check it out and see what it is like. I am sure that she will leave with a greatly different outlook.
cheers
scott
By scott brooks on Oct 10, 2006